Episode 2
Billboards Bets and a bit of Booze
Misconceptions and obstacles in the world of digital out-of-home are no match for this dynamic duo. Host Jonathan Gudai speaks with Anna Bager, CEO of OAAA, on breaking down those barriers through education, simplification, and bravery.
Transcript
Jonathan Gudai
So really what we want to talk about is just the bets that OAAA is making that you might be making and what you’d like to see happen over the next year or so.
Anna Bager
We should all be very proud of our industry. We should recognize the opportunities that’re there for us and be a little bit more ballsy when we’re selling.
Jonathan Gudai
Here we go. Well, welcome Anna Bager from the OAAA president and CEO.
Anna Bager
Thank you so much. It’s an honor.
Jonathan Gudai
We are here at Billboards, Bets, and a little bit of booze live from Las Vegas in person. And we’re going to talk a bit about the things that are happening in our industry, what you’re excited about, where the innovation and everything is going. Well, before we get into the business side, let’s start by testing your luck and Anna you can place three bets on this roulette wheel and let’s see how you do.
Jonathan Gudai
Adam, can you cue up the roulette wheel? Okay.
Anna Bager
All right. I’m going to try and make sure that I win because I don’t like to lose. So I am going to pick number three, red, and black.
Jonathan Gudai
Oh, okay. Okay. So she’s hedging and a three red would be a nice outcome. Let’s see what shakes out here. No more bets, please. The suspense. Black! Boom!
Anna Bager
Awesome!
Jonathan Gudai
Alright. Okay. So the way that we have this game setup is that we have sourced some incredibly rare, incredibly expensive types of alcohol. And we’ve three boxes: a red box, a green box and a black box. So you landed in black. So we’re going to open up the black box and let’s see what we’re going to be drinking today.
Anna Bager
This should be—Oh, wow. This should be a TV show.
Jonathan Gudai
What do we have here? All right.
Anna Bager
Video, not a podcast.
Jonathan Gudai
This is check Anna. This is a 1980 Glenmore Highlands Scotch whiskey, single malt. And, you know, I think back of, you know, 1980, what was going on in the world. And just full disclosure, I wasn’t even here when this thing was bottled. 1980. Where were you?
Anna Bager
Yeah, 1980 I was in— well, I’m not going to say. I had just started school and. Oh, the sounds.
Jonathan Gudai
Smell of that.
Anna Bager
By the way, I wish I had one of these coasters that you have. They’re very nice.
Jonathan Gudai
Well, that might be in the cards. We’ll see. A little giveaway.So cheers.
Anna Bager
Cheers.
Jonathan Gudai
Thanks for being on the show.
Anna Bager
Thanks for having me.
Jonathan Gudai
Mm hmm.
Anna Bager
That’s very good.
Jonathan Gudai
Wow. That’s smooth. Yeah, that is smooth. Okay, so, you know, when it comes to bets in general, are you a gambler? Like, when you come to Vegas, do you play in the casinos?
Anna Bager
I do a little bit. Not very successfully, but. Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Slot machines, Tables. What is your?
Anna Bager
Tables? Probably. Yeah. I never understood the slot machines, but yeah, I would probably. I’m good at sort of constraining myself a little bit, but.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anna Bager
I’m fascinated by it. And obviously I am a winner we could just see.
Jonathan Gudai
I know. Yeah. Literally, you know, the, the, the role the strategy worked
Anna Bager
So I might play tonight.
Jonathan Gudai
Who knows. So really what we want to talk about is just the bets that, you know, respectively that OAAA is making, that you might be making, and what you’d like to see happen over the next year or so. And we all have our beliefs, but it’s really about where you place your chips and where you place your time and your energy that sort of determines the trajectory of where you’re going to go. And so when we think about your kind of top three priorities or top three bets, what comes to mind is are some of the things that you’re really excited about and focused on for the coming year.
Anna Bager
I think we’ve never been in such an exciting spot as we are right now. Out of home is, I would argue, hotter than ever. I mean, I’m a little biased, but just by incoming, you know, requests for more information, learning about the industry, press requests and things like that that we’re getting, I know that our members are getting you know, I would argue that that’s unique.
I think the time for us is now. We’re moving to a very different world, a world where consumers have a lot more control. And I think a world where consumers have also very clearly expressed what they want and they like out of home. It’s a medium that works. Advertisers are forced to and I think also start to like the idea of contextual advertising where ultimately the contextual medium and ad dollars are about to shift for good or bad reasons. So even though we’re in maybe an uncertain time when it comes to the economy, I have a really good, very good feeling about our industry going forward. So I think I mean, we definitely are going to play some bets. It’s not going to come easy. It’s not going to fall over us. I think there are things we need to prioritize, but overall, I think we’re in a very good position.
Jonathan Gudai
We’re seeing the same thing. I mean, there’s like a respect that I think a lot of marketers have, advertisers have for the medium that is within them, but not necessarily translate to how they’ve been spending. And as the world has gotten more complicated and whether it’s the privacy changes or it’s just looking for ways to cut through from an attention perspective, you know, we are really well positioned as a as a marketplace. And so really, how do we map some of – So if we take that first chip and say, okay, I’m betting that if we do X, we’re going to see Y, what would you say that that first X is?
Anna Bager
Well, I think first of all, I think the industry has a little bit of a self-esteem problem, still. So I think we should all be very proud of our industry and what we can do. And I think we should recognize the opportunities that are there for us and be a little bit more ballsy when we’re selling.
Jonathan Gudai
Yes!
Anna Bager
Because we can do so much more than advertisers or agencies think. We’ve had three years where we had a lot of time to reset, rebuild and innovate. And I think now is the time to sort of reap those fruits. So I think making sure that the industry is, I guess it’s education, right? Making sure that the industry understands the position we’re in and what resonates with advertisers and how we can go out and be a little bit more aggressively selling our medium, our platform, utilizing, you know, all the amazing locations that we have. But above all the technology, we have the ability to be much more nimble in many ways, more rich in our communication through digital, through programmatic and other tools that we now have at our hands that advertisers really like.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, And I think that there is a craving by brands now who are just looking at what they’ve done in the past and saying, I don’t know, they can run that same playbook anymore. And as the media mix models have changed and even measurement is becoming just, you know, kind of a cloudy thing, that education piece of saying, you know, if you if you have been leaning into programmatic, well, now there’s another, you know, channel within programmatic that will complement what you’re doing over here. And and so it’s really how do we show them? Because now we have Trade Desk that is, you know, currently offering digital out of home. DV360 all the major omni channels and then you have the point solutions like Adomni and Vistar and others. But really that gap where you have a digital buyer, it’s a social media buyer who doesn’t necessarily they don’t know what they don’t know.
Anna Bager
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Right. So, how do we tackle that? I guess that’s something that I think about a lot. And what is that strategy? When you say we’re placing a bet to solve the problem of education, what are some of the ways that you think? How do we go about it?
Anna Bager
Well, I think it’s about educating the buyer, in this case, the DSP, on what we can do, what out-of-home really can accomplish, how it can be measured, but also how it fits with other media channels, how it can improve targeting, how it can improve the overall economics of a media buy and just make things a lot better. Yeah, so education on their end, but also education on our end, right?
Anna Bager
Like what does that mean? How do we create beautiful creative that works in these environments? How do we tie together the many, many different forms of out of home that are out there so that we can touch a consumer basically all the way from the point he leaves, that he leaves his house to when he comes home again.
Jonathan Gudai
Yup.
Anna Bager
Right. Because we have screens everywhere. We are everywhere. Amazing reach. So how do we do that? It’s not just about the billboard. It’s not just about the movie screen. It’s not just about the small place based screen in a shopping mall or the subway station. It’s about all of these things. So how do we tie that together and make that an appealing offering?
Anna Bager
And then the other piece, which, you know, a little bit more boring but super important, you know, working for a trade association, it’s around definitions and guidelines and standards. So we have a tendency to call things different things in our industry. We have a tendency to make ourselves a little bit more complicated than we are. And when you’re working with a trade desk and Google and big platforms like that, they’re used to very little friction, very clear nomenclature, and then they can just press the button.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Anna Bager
So we need to make sure that we adjust so we are just that. So I think it’s education of ourselves and creating a framework that works, which by the way, is not complicated. It’s getting together and just like agreeing on, which is easier than you think. I think for all of us, because there is a real price at the end of the tunnel is make it more making time for it.
So create that back end system, the plumbing, the real digital out of the home, which ties all forms of signage, even, you know, static ones together and and then at the same time educating the advertiser and the buying side on what they can do with us. Yeah. And you have a I mean like we were just today full disclosure we did a panel and you showed some really amazing case studies that proved all of these things, like what our medium can do. Amazing creative how you can use data, but also how it ties into the overall brand goals and their overall strategy. And I think telling more stories like that. So it’s really creating better case studies and making sure that everyone used the same, same way of communicating them.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, And I think that right there is, is the key. You know, every brand might feel like they’re in a unique space, but really they can probably be put into categories.
Anna Bager
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
And if we can structure a system where if you’re a CPG brand and you want to understand what programmatic can do for CPG to be able to search that like you were in like a Google search system and then find case studies and testimonials and things where it is accessible, but it also doesn’t require this huge sort of learning curve or like academy sort of experienced it to just get what you need pretty quickly.
Yeah, I remember when Adomni was first starting, we did this Silicon Valley like incubator program and it was run by early Google employees, and at the end they said, “Do you have any questions for us?” And I said, “You know, Google at one time was a startup and they had a new product. And obviously you guys had an amazing success with your search product and then all the other ones that came behind it. But what really catalyzed things. How did you get brands and hadn’t switched on what they were doing before to the new way?” And they said really two things. It was case studies and testimonials.
Anna Bager
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
And people just want to see and feel that what their needs are have been achieved with success by others and reproduce that success. And the formula is still the same like you were talking about. It’s how do we break through the noise, how do we put content on the screen that’s relevant, and also how do we not piss off, you know, people with the medium itself where it’s not, you know, interrupting their life. And that’s what Digital out of home arguably does better than any other channel.
Anna Bager
Well, certainly better than a lot of things that Google has done. I would add two things to Google’s. And I think Google is a fantastic company. And by the way, a company that I think is going to help take out of home to a lot more revenue than we have today. But I would argue two more things that they did. They simplified their product so much that it just felt like you could basically just click on something and you’ll know everything.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah,
Anna Bager
We are not doing that today. We are making ourselves more complicated, so let’s simplify ourself. The other thing that Google did was they built businesses and this is something that our medium can do. I was part of the whole kind of mobile advertising rollout at Google. They did not go to any big companies. They created self-serve solutions that were easy to interact with for local businesses and help them build success. And a lot of those businesses are big businesses today. So they really created a market for themselves. When I was at the IAB, we had a lot of in our membership, there was a lot of animosity and anger for Google and oh my God, they have 70% of all the ad revenue.
And when you look back at where the revenue came from, it’s not from the top 200 advertisers that spent money on the New York Times or ABC or it’s all these new organizations that they managed to put a foothold in. And then they grew into bigger ones. I think simplification and helping your customer win. I mean, those are two really important things that I think we have been doing for years. But just do more.
Jonathan Gudai
We are in the best position from a timing perspective because of everything that’s happening around us. Really, it’s more just like if the first bet was education, maybe the second bet that you mentioned is simplicity. So these simplified buying platforms, what do we need to do as an industry from your perspective that you’d like to see happen in the next year or so?
Anna Bager
Well, I mean, there’s a lot that goes into that, too. That’s a big question. But I think I mean, it sort of starts with doing it. Thinking about, out of home is different. And I hear it and myself when I came here, I’m like, Oh my God, that like programmatic is going to grow to like 80%. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen in out-of-home because we have scarcity, right?
Like we don’t have unlimited signage and we just have certain very premium places or just certain types of buying seconds that will never have that much on the open exchange. But I think automating the process, thinking about all of our inventory, even static as something that we can put into the system, right? And where you can use, it’s not just about simplifying the process is also about being able to use data and knowledge and other triggers, things that is specific, honestly, and maybe not true for a because I love I love to focus on the individual and the consumer.
But things that ring true for most brands, especially large national brands, they want to use their own data, They want to use their own knowledge, their own goals. If they are able to combine that right? With our assets, they’re going to want to buy more. And I think adding that to the process is going to be helpful.
So to get there, I think we need to be more brave about putting inventory up there. We also need to create a framework because all out of home is not equal. All out of home could be premium to someone. I honestly dislike the word premium a lot and I also dislike the word remnants because I think everything is premium.
It’s in the eyes of the beholder. It’s really only finding the person that finds that thinks it’s premium.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Anna Bager
Right. So how do you do that? And that’s by like really understanding what it is that you’re doing and how you can help advertisers, what their needs are.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
But I think, you know, there’s a big difference between a billboard, what you can do on a billboard and what a billboard really works to transit, to place based to many other different parts of out of home, maybe even retail media to a certain extent.
Anna Bager
Right. So within the programmatic exchanges for a company such as Trade Desk to invest more in us, they need to to some extent understand that all out of home is not the same thing. So what is the difference and when do we target differently? Because end of the day, if we do it right, we’re going to create more value for the advertiser.
I think when you talked about different verticals or creating case studies, I mean that’s really what we need to understand. Every brand is going to want something for them. But there are verticals that want different things. They have different business objectives, they have different measurement that matter to them and they have totally different cycles. So if we can understand that, we can, which is something that Google were very good at, but also the traditional media world has been very good at.
If we can add that to our model when it comes to sort of automation and programmatic, we’re just going to be able to drive so much more money.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Anna Bager
So I think that that’s where we really should. Place our bets.
Jonathan Gudai
One area that, you know, we personally are putting a big bet on is that the creative can be incredibly enhanced from where it’s been in the past. And you know, I like to sometimes just kind of peruse the campaigns that are running on our platform and just see what people are running and all that. And there’s a lot of content that you wouldn’t even necessarily be able to identify who the advertisers, or they took something that was for a clickable ad and they just threw it up in Digital out of home, or they took a video piece and they just threw it in there and they didn’t really think about, well, how are people behaving in that environment? And, you know, in this world, we were talking earlier about thousands and thousands of messages of decision points we’re making today. And it gets worse, right, with every day. More platforms. I mean, Be Real. Come on, Be Real. We’ve got to have another social platform everyone has to be thinking about. But the but the point is that I believe that, you know, a brand’s sort of personality or their body language is what the screens should be portraying and reflecting.
And what I think social media has done really well is it’s given the opportunity for a brand to express themselves either with their own creative teams or with these creators/ influencers that are outside, that are working with them or even consumers that they’re interacting with their product. And I think that that drove a lot of the success of why Instagram and why TikTok are so sticky for consumers.
Anna Bager
Feels legit and authentic. Or at least it did. Yeah
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, it did. And then it got to an extreme and then advertisers lost the ability to target and there’s the whole advertising sort of world side of it. But if we just focus on the creative side, what can we learn from those platforms and adapt to our platforms like our screens that are now programmatically enabled, that are just a large TikTok mobile phone is is basically a LinkNYC
Anna Bager
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Urban Panel. So what have you been seeing or what bits would you like to see in the creative sort of realm that you’ve heard is in motion or just in general that you’d like to see happen?
Anna Bager
Well, I think what you just said, you can’t just take a banner out and put it on a billboard. I mean, that’s by the way, that’s a classic. You can take a TV ad and put it on OTT. You have to better understand where your ad is going to show up. And it doesn’t have to be that complicated.
Not like you have it. You just have to put some thought into it. Yes. We are 40 different formats and different things will work on different formats. But it’s really the idea, right? Let’s start with a good idea and then it’s like it let the creative juices flow. But I think what we need to do is I think that there’s a misconception and sometimes, you know, in programmatic you could just have a very simple message and you can let the data take you all the way, right?
You could use weather or other types of triggers that could just, you know, help drive people into the store or messaging and stuff. But for the most part, you have so many more opportunities on digital. You could do a lot more. You could work with rich media. You could I mean, we should never kid ourselves and think that we’re video in the same way.
I think that OTT or I mean, I would argue even CTV but we have some amazing capabilities so leverage that and lead with a creative and I think we know this better than most. I think most of our media companies or platforms should start the way to create a small content studio and bring in great creatives. I mean, we already kind of do it work directly with a brand, I think just in general, work directly with the brand works.
Don’t be afraid to reach directly out to the advertiser and talk about the idea. But even with a programmatic buyer from a large agency, offer your advice because that’s how that’s how it’s going to seem. But yeah, creative is the most important thing. An ad is never going to fly no matter how great it is if the creative isn’t resonating for the right audience.
But I do think that an interesting thing and you know, we talked before about Instagram and other places and how targeted those environments are. Another thing that our industry is offering that I think we should bear in mind, and this is not a fully baked idea, but this is something I think about a lot because when I’m out there talking to agencies and to advertisers, I think we’ve all heard it.
All right, I’m paying this much money to reach a specific group of a specific audience, and then I’m getting so many others, like, what am I actually paying for? I think that that’s an advantage of our medium in today’s world when up until now, everything has been so targeted, you can’t go on. And even in non-advertising supported, you know, environment, everything is super driven by data.
You can’t not go to Netflix and be surprised you’re going to get this. Whatever is in your algorithm, you’re going to be served. You’re never going to find anything new. Same thing when you go online, wherever you are, you’re going to be served something that they think Jonathan likes, right? Our medium, because of how we are, have the opportunity to inspire actually, many more than the audience you’re trying to reach.
Obviously, you should target them, but I think we should also think about our medium as a real messaging platform for the world and how that can, you know, drive new new audiences and how we can potentially also measure that, which I don’t think necessarily has to be hard.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, And I think that’s almost like a philosophical shift that needs to happen in people where as a society we’ve moved into this very targeted but also transactional type of existence. And all day long it’s, you know, it’s very specific. It’s quick hits, it’s decisions, answers, emails, slacks, everything like that. And then you might, you know, I call them to my wife, troll, troll Instagram just to get some inspiration, just to discover some things.
But digital out of home arguably is as valuable or more valuable as a discovery medium if used the right way. If brands are participating in and putting out their new content and doing their things in a way that it doesn’t necessarily have to be just women of a certain age that are have an interest in this, there might be men also that, you know, when they discover connects in a way that I think it’s been dismissed in the past by a lot of the brands who like overindexed to the data science, technology side of things.
And hopefully we can bring that back where quality hopefully starts winning over quantity, you know, and it’s the blend of the two. And I personally would love to see more creatives in the planning process or at the point in which the brief is being kind of formed and, and you know, and they could be thinking about it as opposed to a few days before the campaign needs to run.
It’s, Oh, what are we making? Okay, let’s slap these things together and get it, get it off and plug into the platforms. And that maybe goes back to the education piece where early on, it’s not just here’s how you can use the channel and here’s the steps to actually activate, but also best practices. To get the most out of it, you know.
Anna Bager
Definitely yeah. And help with that creative piece. And yeah, I wish the agencies were much more integrated. I think it would have been so amazing. But in today’s world you kind of need the strategy but also need the creative and you need to place the bets somewhere this shows up. It all has to be integrated. Yeah, but I think that if we look at our platform, what are some of the things that are so unique about us that a brand, I think in the environment we’re in today would kill for?
I think it’s that ability to create serendipitous just moments for consumers. And by the way, just because you’re not a woman, 35 to 40 doesn’t mean that you’re married, not married to one, and want to give them a gift.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Anna Bager
Want to know how they feel or whatever it is. So I think the ability we have to deliver that, that no other channel can today, because, by the way, when you take targeting capability away from online, it’s not going to mean that you’re going to be inspired. It’s going to be you’re going to be spent out of your mind. There’s going to be so many ads, they’re not going to be targeted. And the media companies are going to have to over monetize, too, to make back the money that they used to.
Jonathan Gudai
So it’s happening right now with Facebook.
Anna Bager
Absolutely. And Instagram as well, right? We have like such a unique opportunity and providing serendipity and targeted reach. So I think those are things we need to think about and talk about more and then, you know, not for nothing. And we’ve been saying it for a long time and that’s maybe one other the fourth I know I can only press three, but that I have a.
Jonathan Gudai
Double down on the third.
Anna Bager
Yeah. You know, I think one important thing is checking the caching the marker. So you know, we actually walk away with the profit would be, you know, we say we’re brand safe, we are fraud free. We you can’t skip us, you can’t block us. You know we’re safe bet let’s keep it that way because when we are becoming digital where we are becoming programmatic, when we are starting to attract higher CPMs, all those things are going to come our way.
And we should keep the trust that we have with the brand they may find as complicated and hard to buy, and they don’t really quite can’t figure out how to get in touch with us, but they trust us. So I think that would be the fourth thing. That’s what are our core strengths and how do we keep them pure and great.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah. We talked about how, you know, CEOs and CMO’s of the different brands have such a pride when they see their out of home campaigns and there is a certain trust element where, you know, you know, it’s a public display. You know, the environments are saying, you know that you can go see it if you want to put yourself in front of it. And so yeah, that’s all really important.
Anna Bager
And you don’t want it to show up in a place where you might not want to confess that you are, for example.
Jonathan Gudai
And that’s where I think maybe transparency through the buying process is the solution there where, you know, maps that show where your ads going, you know, the screen types or the media owners that are part of that plan. Yeah, we all along we wanted to make sure that everyone always knew what it was, where it’s not just even though you’re an audience and you may not care as much because you say audience, but no, this is an out-of-home campaign.
You do, you do probably care. And so I think that while it’s a risk that we don’t ever want to fall into some of the traps that programmatic had, but just like bad websites and fraud and all this like kind of junky stuff, there is a scarcity element. So what we have and what we think is going to happen is, you know, we fill the boards and then it’s like, let’s digitize more.
Yeah, and we create more inventory, which we’ve seen over the last few years as more screens get put into the market or more conversions can happen. But there still is an atoms kind of limitation that we have. It’s not like the webs with pixels.
Anna Bager
No, and that could be a strength for us. And also I don’t think the solution is necessarily just to put up more screens. I mean, the strength of our medium, the core of our medium is real estate and being and our expertise and being in the exact right location. Now, my opinion, like I said before, is that premium in the right location depends on who you are
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Anna Bager
But there’s still some common denominator. So just schlepping up like thousands of screens in the wrong place. So there just as a screen to receive your ad, that’s not the strategy. That’s beef up the places that really work. And I think for a company such Adomni, Vistar, definitely Trade Desk and Google and that’s how they’re going to, you know, make the big bucks, right? Just by keeping yourself clean and focusing and delivering the best we can.
Jonathan Gudai
Mapping of inventory what they’re trying to do. And I also think that rising CPMs aren’t necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it’s showing that the buyers are appreciating that the inventory, I mean, as supply does fill, price should go up. Right.
Anna Bager
We have ways to go. We can rise quite a bit. Yeah. I’m not so worried about that.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of supply. You know, let’s find ways that we can come together with trade groups and all the different members and produce those educational resources, share those case studies, those testimonials, so that regardless of where people are activating, it’s more the strategy, the tactics that we can paint the picture for how they could do it.
Anna Bager
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Leaning on and creative.
Anna Bager
Yeah I mean I think that’s the most important thing. We are not a huge industry but we have so much strength. I mean if we work together, if we again use the same narrative sang with the same tune, you know, we could be so strong and again, this is the time to do it. We hope the whole media and advertising ecosystem grows, but we’d rather grow a little better and faster than one, right?
It’s about share shifts and that we’re going to do that together. We’re not going to do that by ourselves.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, I mean, everyone is saying from all like the, you know, predictions that we will be one of the fastest growing mediums.
Anna Bager
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Right. And that’s and that’s, you know, Yeah. Not just for next year, but continuing on where people are going to spend time out of their home and they want relevant, you know, quality interactions that aren’t going to disrupt what they’re doing. And that’s ultimately what we, what we provide. I think we’re in a great position on. It’s great to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us.
Anna Bager
Thank you. This was one of my favorite podcasts. I’m not going definitely the whiskey-
Jonathan Gudai
Is it the whiskey talking?
Anna Bager
I mean, this is like, wow.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, it’s.
Anna Bager
Awesome. Thank you for having me!
Jonathan Gudai
Good timing. Absolutely. Thanks again.