Episode 3
Billboards Bets and a bit of Booze
Chip Harding, SVP of Business Development at Simon Property Group, shares his 20+ years of shopping mall expertise, developing post-pandemic retail trends, and exciting capabilities in the programmatic DOOH space on the latest episode of Billboards, Bets, and Booze!
Transcript
Jonathan Gudai
So you’re saying that if you were to stack up every one of your tenants revenue of what people consumers are spending in store? That’s the tens of billions of dollars that –
Chip Harding
Correct. So the real winners in retail are the ones that do omnichannel the best.
Jonathan Gudai
All right, all right, All right. Chip Harding, Simon Malls.
Chip Harding
Afternoon.
Jonathan Gudai
Good to see you.
Chip Harding
Great to be here.
Jonathan Gudai
Welcome. Welcome.
Chip Harding
Thank you.
Jonathan Gudai
Billboard’s bets and a little bit of booze. You ready?
Chip Harding
I’m a little nervous, but I’m. I’m. I’m. I’m game. Let’s do it.
Jonathan Gudai
Well Vegas sometimes can have some nerves alleviated with a couple of different ways.
Chip Harding
Mm hmm.
Jonathan Gudai
The first of the ways is a good ol ‘wager. So let loose some of that steam by throwing out some money. So we’re going to. We’d like to kick things off with a little roulette action. And if you can select, place three bets and let’s see what that looks like.
Chip Harding
All right. So we’re going to start off with 18 red. That’s the go to for every single roulette spin.
Jonathan Gudai
I like it. I like it.
Chip Harding
Can I split numbers?
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Chip Harding
Yeah. 15, 18, 21, 18 and 17, 18. And then you can put the last $60 all on 18. So I get a whole hundred bucks, right?
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah. We got to do at least ten on on the green zero.
Chip Harding
Spin the wheel.
Jonathan Gudai
Here we go. Bada boom bada bing. 18. I see it. We’re tracking it.
Chip Harding
Oh, you’ve got it highlighted.
Jonathan Gudai
It’s even highlighted.
Chip Harding
Oh, we’ve got nothing.
Jonathan Gudai
13 black.
Chip Harding
Coming up.
Jonathan Gudai
Wow. At a lot of hotels that four doesn’t even exist. But yet it’s on the roulette board.
Chip Harding
Yeah, you’re right.
Jonathan Gudai
All right, so here’s how this works.
Chip Harding
So I’m 0 for 1, right?
Jonathan Gudai
So we have alleviated a little bit of cash, but we are going to replace that with what’s behind door number.
Chip Harding
Number two. Wow.
Jonathan Gudai
What we got here? What we’ve got here?
Chip Harding
Glenmore 1980, Highland Single malt.
Jonathan Gudai
- It’s before my time.
Chip Harding
It is. It’s well before.
Jonathan Gudai
Well, let’s see what we got. Are you a Scotch guy?
Chip Harding
On occasion, when somebody else is buying.
Jonathan Gudai
Not your primary, but. No, but happy to take down a 42 year old.
Chip Harding
Yes. All right. Thank you for doing that math for me. It’s actually now it’s 40 , almost 43.
Jonathan Gudai
Hey, you’re right. It is a new year. Cheers.
Chip Harding
Cheers. Oh.
Jonathan Gudai
Mm hmm. That’s smooth.
Chip Harding
That is delicious.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, that is nice. Well, thanks for coming in. It’s great to see you as always. And for those who may or may not know Chip Harding, but may know, probably Simon Malls. If you could just just share a little bit about Simon Malls, your role and just, you know, kind of the network and your responsibilities there.
Chip Harding
Sure. Yeah. So Simon Simon, Property Group. So we you know, we do shopping centers across the world actually. And here in the U.S., we have many of the big ones, like King of Prussia, the mall in Short Hills, the Houston Galleria, the Beverly Center here in Vegas. We have the forum shops, the shops at Crystals, Las Vegas North Premium outlets, Las Vegas South premium outlets and 200 others.
Chip Harding
Yeah, so 220 others in the U.S. And then around the world, we have properties in Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, we have investments in Europe and 130 some odd shopping centers across Europe. And more recently, we’ve actually been getting into retailing as well. So we, through some JV partnerships, we also own Forever21, Eddie Bauer, Reebok, Brooks Brothers, Nautica, Aeropostale, J.C. Penney.
Jonathan Gudai
Wow.
Chip Harding
And then also online shopping. So Rue La La.com, Gilt.com Shop premium outlets.com.
Jonathan Gudai
Gilt, Gilt.com is you guys? Wow.
Chip Harding
And, you know, it’s a JV partnership.
Jonathan Gudai
Sure.
Chip Harding
All three of those entities under, part of one group. And so, yeah. So that’s Simon.com, Simon Property Group. And so I run what’s what’s referred to as the Brand Ventures team. And so we are, broadly speaking, charged with generating revenue through – let me take another step first.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Chip Harding
Generating revenue through any and all means outside of leasing space to stores. So we have nothing to nothing to do with ads. So when it comes primarily in three forms, the first and the biggest is out of home media. So we have a network of roughly seven and a half thousand assets. And about 6000 of them are static and about 1500 of them are digital all across the country.
Jonathan Gudai
Mm hmm.
Chip Harding
And so that’s our biggest channel. And then second is we use our common areas of the shopping centers for brand experiences, brand events. And then the third channel is because we have hundreds of millions of consumers coming through our properties in our buildings. We have other services available, and we it’s kind of a boring name, but we call them the volume businesses.
Chip Harding
And so we have a partnership with Coca-Cola and about 3000 vending machines, ATM machines, stroller rentals, shopping cart rentals, and, of course, Santa Claus.
Jonathan Gudai
So it’s different. I mean there’s a lot of diversification there. And are there some things that are more just like. It’s just they’re humming. You just gotta make sure that the wheels are oiled and there’s not much happening there. And others are really the focus. And obviously this shall we talk about bets in. You know that between what you describe there as you’re a landlord with real estate that you own within tenants but you also own some brands too.
Jonathan Gudai
So you are a retailer or you have a, you know, JVs and these businesses and all that slew. How do you prioritize? How do you think about where the biggest upside opportunity is and how is that changing in this landscape?
Chip Harding
Well, I just focus on the Brand Ventures team, which is those three pieces that I talked about. And so in terms of prioritization, the first and foremost is people. And so the team has got to be productive. And we get contributions across the organization at the local level, the regional level, the national level.
And we do so much volume. We need all three of them working at 100%, 95%, 105%. Because it’s you know, if something happens at the local operation in Houston. Nobody else is doing that. So we need to make sure first and foremost that the people are productive.
They’re in you know, they’re in the right, the right headspace, in the right assets and the right support. And so that’s priority number one. And then second, I look at, you know, what else can we do, how can we grow? Where can we add? And so that’s something that’s really exciting for 23 is that we’re getting back into our capital investments.
So we’ve got a number of new LED projects that are in various stages of either funding approval or it’s been approved and it’s in construction, that type of thing. So there’s –
Jonathan Gudai
Mm hmm. During the pandemic, obviously, the consumer’s behavior changed from shopping, ordering delivery online. What are you seeing, you know, post-pandemic now and what are some of the numbers stats I mean, has it returned to the pre-pandemic or are we seeing anything different?
Chip Harding
We’re super excited. So the pandemic really created I mean, nobody could have foreshadowed this, but it created this amazing opportunity for us. So there’s a number of things going on in retail in the U.S. So one is the US was over retail. So on a per population basis we had five X the number of retail square footage as Europe.
So if you take all of Europe and you add up, you know, the quantity of square footage dedicated to retail, we were five x. So you don’t really need a gap at every mile, you know.
You don’t. So what the pandemic did for us is it took seven, eight years of activity and condensed it into basically nine months. So it was a really positive cleansing. And it it really pushed out a lot of the bad –
Jonathan Gudai
Lower quality stuff that just was hanging on.
Chip Harding
Lower quality stuff. Bad operators. And it opened up a whole bunch of opportunities for us. And so currently we’re at 94.5% occupancy across our entire portfolio.
Jonathan Gudai
Sure.
Chip Harding
So the occupancy is one data point. Another data point is that we get the spending information. So sales is another indicator of the vibrancy and in the health and activity that’s going on. And so that’s also really, really positive. And it’s in the, you know, you know, many, many, many billions of dollars in terms of actual money that’s spent within our four walls.
Jonathan Gudai
So you’re saying that if you were to stack up every one of your tenants revenue of what people consumers are spending in store? That’s the tens of billions of dollars that –
Chip Harding
Correct.
Jonathan Gudai
Flow through your properties.
Chip Harding
Yeah. And we have and there’s some individual properties where the at one location, the spending exceeds $1,000,000,000 on an annual basis in 2021 and in 2022. So it’s, pretty powerful, powerful stuff.
Jonathan Gudai
And that’s something I think you’re right that a lot of people, you know, have transitioned to using Amazon for a lot of their purchases. And they think that, you know, the majority of consumption is happening online. And what is that? What would you say the actual percentages of like, you know, in-store brick and mortar versus online?
Chip Harding
Online is approximately 14% of total consumer spending. Yeah, I mean, it’s grown. Um, you know, when you start from a small base, and you grow 60% or 80%, it sounds phenomenal, which it is phenomenal. And that’s, that’s great. But it, it actually in, in 2022 it actually dipped a little bit. Not, not, not a huge amount of, you know, maybe 2/10 or 3/10 of a percentage point.
Jonathan Gudai
Because people want to be back out at home. Want to touch and feel the clothes and try it on in person and then have an outing where it’s not just an efficient way to to buy something you.
Chip Harding
Don’t want to. I mean, there’s only so many times that you can buy three sets of something online, have it shipped here, and none of it fits, you know, or or the color just doesn’t look the way it did in the picture. So it’s you know, people aren’t so excited about that. I mean, for you know, I don’t know how it is in everybody’s household but mine.
It’s the the online spending is more utilitarian.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Chip Harding
And when it comes time to you know, if you want something new and you’re not sure what it is, you want to go and check it out. And and it’s it’s, it’s an experience in and of itself. And then you’re more satisfied at the end of the day with, uh, with what you got.
Jonathan Gudai
For sure. Yeah. And then there’s even the hybrid stuff where you, maybe you, you do some shopping online, but you go to the store to actually pick it up.
Chip Harding
So there’s a lot.
Jonathan Gudai
Is that happening a lot?
Chip Harding
A lot of that. So the real winners in retail are the ones that do omnichannel the best. And that is, you know, you got the check shirt. So here it is. In a slightly different color or here’s the same fit and with a different style or a different print. They’re the ones that are really, really winning.
And. And you have to do both. It’s simple. As simple as that. You have to have that. That’s communication lined up so that you can, you know, personalize the experience because that that that’s, that’s what it’s all about. And so omnichannel is key.
Jonathan Gudai
They might be exposed to it on social; they might be exposed to it when they’re doing a search through Google. But at the end of the day, like you said, the ability to go to that store and actually feel it, touch it. And also, I mean, for your shopping centers, like what sort of time are people on average spending when they’re coming out, they’re going and getting that shirt leaving?
Or is it more like an average?
Chip Harding
So the national average across all of our shopping centers is about 85 minutes.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Chip Harding
At the outlet centers, it tends to be longer. And then there’s the seasonal shopping trips, which if you’re, you know, doing your back to school shopping, it’s also going to be longer. But if you average all that stuff together, it’s about 80, 85 minutes.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Chip Harding
And so we’ve been doing a lot on the tenant mix of the shopping centers to extend that stay. So we’ve been adding a lot of lifestyle components. So, you know, it used to be just there would be a food hall and a movie theater. Now it’s with upscale sit down dining, lifetime fitnesses. So we’ve been opening up lots of lifetime places early.
Jonathan Gudai
Oh really?
Chip Harding
We’ve also been adding residential.
Jonathan Gudai
So the audience trends are back; people are being able to do more things at the properties and it’s constantly changing. When you think of out of home, so you mentioned 7500 or so assets, but 1500 are digital. How do you see that changing? And also how are you bringing that to market? And does that in any way kind of fit into the bets you’re making from an investment perspective?
Chip Harding
Yeah, it does. So. So the first part of how is it changing, evolving? So I talked earlier about how we’re adding more digital. So this would be some of the examples that I gave was a conversion of static to digital and others. It’s brand new digital and starting in 2016, 17, 18, 19, we were looking at about 20 to 25 properties a year and doing a static to digital conversion.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Chip Harding
So we’re picking that back up again and we’ll continue down our –
Jonathan Gudai
Our digital transformation.
Chip Harding
Yeah, continue down our list. And then in terms of how we go to market.
Chip Harding
Digital specifically, we’re really excited about programmatic. So we launched our programmatic right when we closed all of our shopping centers during the pandemic. So it was the perfect –
Jonathan Gudai
I’ve heard that before. Never let a good pandemic go to waste.
Chip Harding
We nailed the timing on that one. But since then, we’ve been learning a lot. I mean, obviously, we’ve had double digit growth. I mean, 100, 150%, which is easy when you’re starting with a really small base. But we’re not a we like, unlike other organizations where they’re programmatic, they built themselves to be programmatic first. We’re not structured that way.
So we are learning, learning fast and growing fast. And we’re excited about that. We’re excited about some of the new enablements that programmatic is bringing to the table, like Shoutable. So there’s a lot of fun stuff that we’ve got on the horizon with that. And I think our venues and our screen formats are ideally suited for the Shoutable concept, which is that and those celebratory moments happen all the time inside shopping centers, whether you’re going to purchase a gift for it or you’re actually doing the celebration there.
So it’s almost like a match made in heaven. I mean it’s really yeah, we’re super excited about that and happy to be working with you on that. So we should probably pour.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Chip Harding
Pour another drink on that.
Jonathan Gudai
We might, we might want to do a double double up on that one. The, you know, the screens themselves. If we actually go and fly into the shopping centers and describe the kinds of screens, I think. So how many different types of screens, let’s start there are, inside the shopping centers.
Chip Harding
So on the digital side, we primarily have two different types. We have our digital ad panel, which is a floor mounted or column mounted. If it’s a floor mounted unit, which is most of them, they’re floor mounted. So it’s a double sided 65 inch screen. That is right at eye level.
Jonathan Gudai
High res.
Chip Harding
High res, right in the center of the common center of the corridor, right at the key intersection points, and to capture the most eyeballs possible. So that’s the majority of what we have. Then we have our large format LEDs and they are generally, most of them are suspended from the ceiling. They’re double sided, they’re 18 feet tall, 13 feet wide.
Some of them actually rotate. And the reason why they rotate is because we don’t want any one side to have a bad side. So we want them all to be good sides and we don’t want to block any sightlines from any of the stores. So there’s a slow rotation of them.
Jonathan Gudai
And are we talking, are most of these vertical? Portrait orientation?
Chip Harding
Yeah. 99% of them are.
Jonathan Gudai
And so that’s, that’s actually an interesting thing because I feel like that while that might be the minority of screens out there, like whether it’s billboards or it’s TVs that are just horizontally, you know, set up, with everything that’s been moved to our phone where mobile ads are being served vertically and social media ads, which are mostly mobile first, are vertical.
Do you see that the brands are taking some of that social and mobile content, or do you see them really thinking about the space and doing something different when it comes to the type of creative on your vertical screens?
Chip Harding
I think the brands are, we have some brand partners that really focus on the context of where our screens are and then other brand partners where it’s just the same ad that they’re running everywhere else and they have a horizontal version and a vertical version. And I think there’s, we’re trying to do a better job of showcasing how if you contextualize our locations and the vertical orientation of our screens, we’ve got work to do on that, to be frank.
And, the brands have work to do on it as well. But it all comes down to time and resources and, and that’s a challenge for all of us.
Jonathan Gudai
And I actually want to back you up on that because I think that, you know, from our side, one of the big bets that we’re making is on better creative and making those screens really shine brighter and have more draw to the eye. By having the creative teams in the agencies or on the brand earlier in the process of planning the different touchpoints that the campaign’s going to have and not just having out of home be like the last thing that was, you know, the afterthought and okay, we’ll just figure out what we’ve done on our social angle or whatever else it is and throw it on there.
And, and, you know, so the way Adomni is tackling that is education and bringing those screens and the capabilities to the creatives where we’re targeting them specifically and showing them, here are the specs. Here’s what you can do and think about an 85 minute dwell time. This isn’t a six second video ad on, where someone’s scrolling hundreds of feet of constant content. You’re there and have multiple –
Chip Harding
Multiple screens, multiple touchpoints 85 minutes so there’s an.
Jonathan Gudai
Impact.
Chip Harding
Real opportunity to make an impression.
Jonathan Gudai
Right Yeah so you talked about Shoutable and that is also one of our bets for the company in the ability especially in a lifestyle environments you know a place where people are going to have fun, to have the screens be more than just buy my products here’s a new service actually something that yeah, the consumer can engage with.
Have you done anything like Shoutable or has it been any sort of UGC or like, you know, we experience it that way.
Chip Harding
Yeah, we’ve done some AR, so all of our kiosks have cameras mounted on them and we just did this past year a campaign with the secrets of Dumbledore.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay. Harry Potter.
Chip Harding
Harry Potter movie. And so there’s a scene in the movie where the lead actor and you’ve got to give me a little bit of slack here. I don’t know his name, but anyway, he’s dancing with the Scorpion, so he’s using his Harry Potter skills to control the Scorpions, and he’s kind of dancing with them. And so we did a kind of virtual reality type of thing on the screen.
So the ad would appear and the user would start the experience and then the camera mounted on the kiosk would put them on the screen with the Scorpions, and then they’d be dancing with the Scorpions. And then the experience would end and then they could send it to their scan the QR code, and they would get their –
Jonathan Gudai
Text message or email
Chip Harding
Their video. You know, a short little clip of themselves dancing with the scorpion. So we’ve done that. We’ve done probably, I don’t know, two dozen different campaigns like that. They are you know, they’re they’re a little bit of work on the front ends but they’re they’re really cool when when they when they come together. But there’s that whole ecosystem of the idea to the creative to then the coding in order to make all of that work that takes some pushing and.
Jonathan Gudai
Planning and preparation and creatives who are given this freedom, the time, the space to do that where it’s like, okay, first get the job done. I’m just getting our poster for the movie. Good. Done. Okay, now how do we actually drive community engagement? Have some fun with it, create some social shareability like, you know, digital signage as an experience versus just purely as a one way communication method is the opportunity that for your particular environment.
Chip Harding
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
You can pull it off. Not everyone obviously can pull it off on a billboard on a freeway. It’s just not, it’s just you don’t have the time. And so you’ve got the programmatic pipes where you’ve invested in infrastructure, you’ve invested in the CMS technology and then SSP and obviously all the DSPs. You’ve done that part, right?
Yeah. And so now I feel like it’s kind of like the way that we look at the market where the plumbing is done, the skeleton has been built, and now it’s like, what do you want to do with it? Right. It’s the creativity, whether it’s the social media teams that can have the creative ideas or it’s the digital teams or it’s the experiential teams or it’s the digital out of home teams, it doesn’t matter.
It could be all of them together or separated. That’s really our third bet at Adomni is bringing your audience to an experience, to more buyers, to actually think about how meaningful connections can be made. And that takes I think, some yeah, there’s some painting of pictures for people, right? I mean, AR, Shoutable, there’s all these concepts, but there still comes down to how people need to be given some constraints or being able to show this is what you can do.
And, and so what’s cool about your you know environments also is that you have these pre-made holidays so there’s Valentine’s Day. Right people are coming in. They’re probably going to the jewelry store. They’re picking up chocolates at Godiva. They’re right. They’re shopping for gifts for other people. So there’s the ability to map an actual experience to holidays, right?
I would think. And then there’s product launches where, like you said, the cars or the actual car could be there. But all these screens can be having people do things. So I’m excited to be working with you guys to tell those stories, to show what’s possible, to test and learn. Are you doing testing and learning as part of your –
Chip Harding
All the time! I love test and learn. I mean, I offer that up in every single conversation that I have is that if you want to seriously roll up your sleeves and test and learn, and we’re in nice and it’s yeah, it’s great when, when people respond positively. We did a campaign again right before COVID with a jeans company and I’ll just kind of leave it at a jeans company.
But it was really fun because we ran. Every week we were running different campaigns or different creative and it was all digital and then they were and it was a single product and then they were looking at the sales and, and then they modified the creative and then again it was a single product looking at the sales.
And then they kept dialing it in week after week after week.
Jonathan Gudai
optimizing.
Chip Harding
And yeah, it was perfect. And I’m like, this is it.
Jonathan Gudai
It’s how it should be.
Chip Harding
This is exactly how it should be. And so they learned a lot. We learned a lot. So another campaign we’re running with, this is running right now actually, with a credit card company. And it’s about with every credit card, you get special perks and benefits. Right. So that’s the general gist of this campaign is that with this specific type of credit card, you get special discounts.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Chip Harding
And so we went to our retail partners and we said to, hey, store number one, we’re going to do this campaign and you’re going to be part – If you would like to be part of it, give us a special offer that’s better than all of your other offers. So we signed up about 30 of our retail partners to do that.
And so we took this curated collection of offers.
Jonathan Gudai
Discounts.
Chip Harding
Yeah, and then the campaign ran on a whole variety of assets, so we ran them on digital assets, the large format assets, we ran them on static assets and each individual asset had a unique QR code.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Chip Harding
And so we were able to track the engagement by property, by asset type, by time of day, by day of the week, and optimize it and dial it in, dial it in, and dial it in. And it’s yeah, it’s, it’s phenomenal. In fact, we’re meeting next week to talk about the extension and the continuation and –
Jonathan Gudai
They like it, they’re happy.
Chip Harding
Pretty sure they’re signing up for another year. So yeah so we’re pretty excited about work so yeah yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
I mean and I think that’s where we want to end up going. We know that we’re not a 1 to 1 medium, but there is a tremendous amount of value in optimizing creativive, optimizing time of day and actually seeing results, whether it’s the sales from the registers or it’s the shares online, if that’s one of the objectives.
Chip Harding
That campaign also just one more detail. There was a Hispanic component to it. Okay? So we had language stuff.
Jonathan Gudai
The language?
Chip Harding
And so that’s what really opened up a big wide. Yeah, yeah. Big, big, big door and and it was the numbers and the results are black and white.
Jonathan Gudai
And what we’re talking about here is something pretty standard that they do in programmatic online. The multivariate. You know, it’s like we’re going to, we’re going to do eight different colors, we’re gonna do a few different variations, and we’re going to see what kind of works and when you are within walking distance of being able to buy that product.
You know, on premise. The whole path to purchase. That is when people’s minds are open, they’ve got their credit card in their hand, their mind is open, they’re in a shopping mode and you just present that at the right place and then it’s an easy way to be able to act on it. I mean, it’s it really is online –
Chip Harding
But there we didn’t talk about this actually yet, but I’ve been meaning to ask you. So there’s a destination campaign. So a tourism campaign that we just got a whole bunch of creative come through last week actually, are or maybe this the beginning of this week and it was like 20 different versions of the creative and I’m like that’s fantastic.
That they’re loading all that up into Adomni so that then they can dial in which ones are being more effective. And so yeah, so we’re excited about that coming to life on our screens and, and.
Jonathan Gudai
Wherever we can. We’re encouraging people to do that. Ad fatigue is a real thing. And gone are the days where you put up that one ad and it’s a reaching frequency and it takes, you know, ten times know like recency is what matters And if you’ve seen it before.
Chip Harding
Reason and relevancy so it’s it’s you know the message in Chicago is going to be different than the message in Houston.
Jonathan Gudai
Totally so and the ability to be able to schedule it easily through an online platform, to swap it out as need be, or even tie a dynamic feed, which is some of the cool things we’re looking at doing more dynamic content this year. Super, super cool. And thanks for being progressive. Thanks for being open minded because it’s not the most normal thing in this industry.
I think a lot of the media owners or a lot of the industry has been sort of comfortable with a certain way of doing business and is in some ways waiting for things to just come back. And I believe that it’s it’s it’s –
Chip Harding
Not as fun.
Jonathan Gudai
Oh yeah.
Chip Harding
You gotta put yourself out there and.
Jonathan Gudai
Freshen it up and you’ve got to like, you know, find ways to engage with the way that people are consuming content today and the way they want to spend their time. And you guys are open to that and you guys are doing it. And I think that really we have just scratched the surface. There’s so much still agreed and for us to test and then also have our brands tell us here’s what we want you to be able to do and that that ball is rolling so.
Chip Harding
Cheers.
Jonathan Gudai
Cheers to innovation and partnership. Thank you.