Episode 8
Billboards Bets and a bit of Booze
Eileen Crossin is no stranger to taking heavy-hitting bets in her career and personal journey. Join host Jonathan Gudai as they explore Eileen’s remarkable career, delving into her impactful roles and how her journey has come full circle as the lead of Growth and Strategy at Adomni, where she’s bringing her TikTok expertise to the world of out-of-home.
Transcript
Jonathan Gudai
So the ability to get your perspective from inside TikTok while we’re rolling out this new platform, especially from the sales side.
Eileen Crossin
TikTok, making a bet on it, is all you need to know.
Jonathan Gudai
All right. We’re back for the latest episode of Billboard, Bets, and a bit of booze. I’m very excited to have with me here the esteemed Eileen Crossin.
Eileen Crossin
Hello. Nice to be here.
Jonathan Gudai
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Eileen Crossin
Thank you very much.
Jonathan Gudai
Well, I’m very excited to have Eileen on the show for a number of reasons. To talk a little bit about your background, your career, as well as the future, which this podcast is all about, the bets that you see for yourself professionally, for the companies that you want to impact, the industries you want to impact. And so we’re definitely going to dive into that. But before we do so, we have a little ritual here.
Eileen Crossin
Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
We are in Vegas you know, classic, we like to play a game.
Eileen Crossin
Okay.
Jonathan Gudai
Roulette.
Eileen Crossin
Oh, okay.
Jonathan Gudai
Based on your bets on the roulette table, that will kind of kick off the bit of booze side of the show.
Eileen Crossin
Amazing.
Jonathan Gudai
And so we’re going to start there.
Eileen Crossin
Cool.
Jonathan Gudai
You ready?
Eileen Crossin
I’m into it. Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay. So you have $100 of chips. Down.
Eileen Crossin
Okay. Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
If you want to give four bets, we’ll do $25 increments, so.
Eileen Crossin
Okay. I want to do 33.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Eileen Crossin
I’m going to do five. I’m going to do. How many do I have?
Jonathan Gudai
Two more.
Eileen Crossin
22.
Jonathan Gudai
Three, five and two.
Eileen Crossin
And 11.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay. And I’m taking there’s some significance on the personal side or there’s just all random.
Eileen Crossin
I feel like it’s too soon to share my thoughts on, like, spiritual numbers with you. So maybe we’ll get into that later. Okay.
Jonathan Gudai
All right. So coming soon.
Eileen Crossin
Coming soon.
Jonathan Gudai
Here we go. And no further bets. Let’s see. Let’s see. Let’s see. Let’s see.
Eileen Crossin
Oh, man. What does that mean?
Jonathan Gudai
One to the side. So. So there’s no payout in the form of winnings from the table. But there is a red box that Luba is gonna bring over here for us.
Eileen Crossin
Thank you, Luba.
Jonathan Gudai
And let’s see what we’re going to be diving into.
Eileen Crossin
Wow okay. Oh, wow.
Jonathan Gudai
So, you know, it’s just your midday light. Chateau Dell’acqua..
Eileen Crossin
Oui.
Jonathan Gudai
Distilled in 1980. So what do you think?
Eileen Crossin
Yeah, let’s do it.
Jonathan Gudai
Let’s pop it.
Eileen Crossin
What is it, actually?
Jonathan Gudai
So this is a 39-year-old, Um, it’s a cognac.
Eileen Crossin
Cheers.
Jonathan Gudai
Salud.
Eileen Crossin
Salud. Yeah, I’m not going to. It’s got, like, a real.
Jonathan Gudai
You mean you don’t drink?
Eileen Crossin
No.
Jonathan Gudai
43-year-old cognac?
Eileen Crossin
No.
Jonathan Gudai
Everyday. Mid-week?
Eileen Crossin
No, just. Just wine and tequila.
Jonathan Gudai
You know this show, we definitely want to talk more about future forward, but we’ve some context for our listeners. And also, yeah, talk a little bit about our history. I’d love for you to share a little bit about your career and kind of what brought you to our encounter at CS.
Eileen Crossin
Yeah, absolutely. So I started my career in commercial real estate and I worked in marketing, in sales for a flex office company and in 2010, I made my way into the media industry. And so I joined a company that was then called Titan, which for anyone in the industry who remembers became Intersection, which is the company that it is today. I actually started there. This is like a real walk down memory lane. I actually started there running their street banner division.
Jonathan Gudai
Street banners.
Eileen Crossin
Street banners.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Eileen Crossin
But it was a very cool job for a very cool company. And I was more interested in the people than I was in the role. Although it actually was kind of interesting because I was working very closely with the city of New York and creating all these sponsorships and finding ways for brands to integrate into the brand of New York. So I – there was a creative spin that I sort of found that became fun and actually became quite lucrative for me and for the company at the time. So anyways, I continued my career there and that was sort of my first out of home experience. I was heading out sales for the Link NYC project. So all those beautiful screens and the free public Wi-Fi in New York City and that was definitely one of my most career defining moments and one of the most fun projects, one of the most complex projects I’ve ever worked on, but definitely a highlight. So I was at Intersection until 2021.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay. Wow.
Eileen Crossin
Doing a variety of things. Yes, I was in the out of home industry for ten years.
Jonathan Gudai
You know, from the street banners, it was the phones.
Eileen Crossin
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
The payphones that also are spread out where we used to put a quarter into a payphone before the era of ubiquity of cell phones. Yeah. And so that was your kind of side of the side of that faces outwards to the broader street and –
Eileen Crossin
Exactly right. Okay. Yeah. So it could be a movie wanting to take over the city to create awareness. It could be a bank conquesting another bank on the street corner. You know, there were a variety of different targeting strategies that encompassed our go to market.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Eileen Crossin
But yeah, so then obviously the phone kiosks became Link.
Jonathan Gudai
Yes, let’s talk about that because now I think that’s where the the running happened when all of a sudden static got turned to digital.
Eileen Crossin
Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
And there was so much innovation around that project. Right. Alphabet you mentioned there was an alphabet company. So yeah, talk a little bit about that.
Eileen Crossin
Yeah, it was really cool. I mean, I’d never had an experience like that in my career and to work closely with the city of New York, I think at the time the saying was that it was the largest infrastructure change to New York City since the subway. So it was significant. And I think the idea of the brands that had interest in out of home as a result of that project, this was really cool. Like the idea of sponsoring free public WiFi at scale in New York City. Like, it was a great CMO pitch. But it also resonated with small businesses and mid-market sized businesses. So it gave us a really cool opportunity to create a brand as Intersection. And then also, I think the out-of-home industry benefited as well because it ushered in a conversation around programmatic, around being able to buy these screens as you would by digital. And I think it was the first time that a company was really able to talk about because of the scale of the impressions and the uniqueness of the project. It was the first time that you were able to have a conversation about buying impressions, buying share of voice, buying dayparts, all things that we know today to be true about digital out of home. But I think it created a lot of advancement for the industry and so it was fun to be part of that and to be a thought leader in that world.
Jonathan Gudai
Very cool. We had Esther Rafael on the show as well, CMO of the intersection, and she talked a lot about those screens. And, you know, vertical video obviously is really hot, which we’re going to talk about in a minute.So you were there during this massive transformation of that company? Focusing on the sales side, right? Has that been mostly kind of your purview?
Eileen Crossin
Yes, sales and business development.
Jonathan Gudai
Okay.
Eileen Crossin
From the beginning. And so I did that for a while. And then in 2019, we decided that the West Coast needed some attention. Okay. And so we moved out to L.A. to double down on our entertainment and tech verticals, because at that point I sort of like made a name for myself in being able to break brands and connect directly to brands that were thinking about out of home, not necessarily using the channel effectively. So I sort of sent on that mission, okay. And it was super fun. And I loved living in L.A. The pandemic then came.
Jonathan Gudai
Rollin in.
Eileen Crossin
In 2020, so that changed what I expected from a personal experience quite a bit. But yeah, it was really cool. And then I sort of like got to this place where I was like, wow, I’ve been in this industry for a really long time. Like, this is probably the only company that I at the time would have wanted to work for in the industry, just based on like the vision and the leadership. And so I started to think about diversifying my skillset, my experience, and pushing myself to do something different. And so I had a friend who was like, You should go work for TikTok. And I was like, I didn’t even have the app. I haven’t really admitted that publicly, but so I downloaded the app.
Jonathan Gudai
And when they said TikTok, you knew about it based upon its reputation as a dance, like fun music.
Eileen Crossin
Like at the time it was, it was the time when I don’t know if you remember this, but it was the time when the Ocean Spray campaign, wasn’t even a campaign. The organic Ocean Spray content that went viral was like everybody in advertising was talking about, and everybody’s like, What’s going on on TikTok? And obviously everybody’s at home. And so the platform is like, just absolutely like, like flourishing. And so I was like, okay. And I had a friend of a friend who introduced me and it just happened very organically and really fast. And so I was lucky enough to move to Austin, which is where I live now. And I joined the mid-market team, the growth team, and I was running their strategic agency partnerships team as a head of industry. So I started in July of 2021 and my last year of TikTok was last Friday. So I spent a little over two years on the independent agency team taking all of the experience that I had in Out of Home and translating that to TikTok. But I think as we get into the future I’ll talk more about that.
Jonathan Gudai
That was a formative moment. How did you find the differences between selling out of home like real world audiences or large format impressions and now going into a platform where it’s 1 to 1 and it’s video and it’s like emerging where even the best brands were still trying to figure that out.
Eileen Crossin
I mean, I think what I found fascinating, I mean, certainly there are the obvious points of like you’re going from one too many to 1 to 1. But I think what I found fascinating was that as an out of home seller I would have thought to myself, like, oh, it would be so much easier to go sell TikTok. And the truth of the matter is, like, there’s so much education that’s required in the marketplace to truly become an always on partner or to move from the test budget to like I am now, sort of like. Yeah, Evergreen or or even just sort of like a more like, stable component of your omnichannel media plan.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Eileen Crossin
Right. And so I think that was the most fascinating thing that I learned early on. And, you know, you talk about the phenomenon that is TikTok. I mean, like the level of influence and sort of like cultural significance and impact is just it’s outsized. But it was really interesting to shepherd brands and agencies through that phase, because it’s scary, too, right. And like, you’re talking about significant media investments and in a lot of cases you’re talking about them compared to tried and true platforms that these agencies have relied on to really like to invest, invest every dollar in a way that they know exactly how that dollar is going to perform for them.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Eileen Crossin
Right. And so that was a big shift for me, too, is to understand, like when you’re talking about performance media and like ROAS, like in out of home, like it’s like, oh, I saw it. So it worked right? And there’s been a lot of advancements and out of home which you’re probing to educate me on. But I think for a long time for marketers it was that sort of like vanity play upper funnel awareness. And when you look at social platforms, which is how TikTok was bucketed, it was it’s very much about like that, that metric, that formula, that granular like approach to business outcomes.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, right. Even though social media or video has been around for so long and even though mobile it’s been around for enough years to say that it’s mature to an extent. What was your, where did you guys find success or how did you think about like justifying shifting the dollars.
Eileen Crossin
What marketers and agencies have wanted to do for very justifiable reasons is put every platform and every partner into a channel so that they know what to do with it, so that they understand how to think about it in media mix modeling. Right. But I think that when you think about consumer behavior and engagement, as you referenced, it’s very hard to do that because if you put TikTok in your social channel bucket and you treat it like Instagram or any meta product, it isn’t necessarily going to perform in the same way. You can’t create for it in the same way. And your consumer is not going to interact with it or engage with it in the same way.
Jonathan Gudai
So TikTok last Friday was your was or was your last day there and you’re here in Las Vegas, what brings you to Las Vegas?
Eileen Crossin
So last summer I was contacted by a good friend who I worked with in the out-of-home industry for a long time who was like interested in like talking about what’s going on in the industry and whether or not there are opportunities. And I was like, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time now that I’ve been at TikTok, and I can kind of see that. It’s like the out-of-home is like the digital Holy Grail, right? Like that’s what out-of-home continues to work toward. And obviously there’s been a tremendous amount of advancement with that and programmatic and in a lot of other ways. But now that I was in the Holy Grail, I was like, well, it doesn’t look so different, right? But also, except the budgets are much bigger, but which matters. But I could see where I think out of home was thinking very one dimensionally about the opportunity. Right? So when you say like out-of-home can be digital, just like video traded programmatically. Sure. For a business outcomes perspective in a lot of ways, right? From a reporting perspective, like the sort of basics like that. But like there are other things that were missing. And so I started to think about like the challenges that TikTok was seeing, right? And this idea that, like you have communities that exist in mobile experiences at that time, like the pandemic was ending and people were going back outside and it was like, what is the idea of like the for you page in real life, FYP IRL, right? Like, is that a place that out of home can go, right? Because I think like if you start to see a trend where there was all this consolidation and omnichannel planning around the customer happening like I mean can the industry ride on the coattails of that. And so I thought about what that might look like. And then fast forward to January and we were introduced by a mutual friend and had lunch and you were talking about everything I’d been thinking about, and I was like, holy shit. Can I swear on the podcast?
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah.
Eileen Crossin
I won’t swear again. And so I was like, wow, like someone’s thinking about this. Like, this is really interesting. So, you know, I think the opportunity for Out of Home is very much encapsulated in how Adomni is thinking about the market and the opportunity. And so as we continued our conversation and I was thinking about my future, I thought, well, this sort of what you’re doing really marries my experience in this very unique way. And so why don’t I come and see where it goes?
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, And that was and that was at a time when we were about to finalize a partnership with TikTok that.
Eileen Crossin
I didn’t know how much you like, sorry.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah, no, no, I mean time and place. And so we had already last year launched Shoutable and shown UGC being applied to the physical world. We had already, like rethought the way that video gets placed into the physical world, but by not calling it at out of home per se, just a digital extension, video extension. And so the ability to get your perspective from inside TikTok, where we’re rolling out this new platform and especially from the sales side where where, you know, this is something that’s going to be announced broadly. And there’s a program name that’s coming out in October. So depending upon this podcast dropping. But so we may not steal too much of the thunder, but I think that it’s already been publicized how TikTok sees the opportunity to go beyond their own mobile app. And Dan Page and the group there, new screens and all everything that they’re doing.
Eileen Crossin
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
There’s televisions that people might want to consume on. There are audio formats that people might want to consume on. And then there’s also these digital screens in the real world. That why aren’t those bringing authenticity, creators and extending the assets that people are spending so much time building for just the phone into the real world. So I know we asked I asked for lunch with you because selfishly, we want to understand how that would be thought of from within the walls and especially someone who came from that out of home space. It was like a dream interview position to have. So we started talking and then the program started rolling out. So we’ve had some early campaigns that have seen some creators, but the bet around extension.
Eileen Crossin
Yeah.
Jonathan Gudai
Is something and you’ve seen this where you had to redefine what TikTok was to social media. Video buyers. I’d love your perspective on the bets that you see or like the how that same philosophy can be applied in this circumstance. Where the digital out of home space becomes a complement. So can you talk a little bit about that? Your thoughts on that?
Eileen Crossin
Yeah, I mean I think TikTok making a bet on it is like all you need to know, right? Like, I think that there’s so much influence that TikTok holds at this point and so much power that because they see value, I think brands will.
Jonathan Gudai
Pay attention.
Eileen Crossin
Pay attention. Yeah. And I think so then I think it creates the opportunity for us to go in and say, here’s why TikTok sees value. I mean, even just in the few days that I’ve spent talking with you about the industry and the advancements, like there’s so much more accountability. And there’s so much more like that can be done. I think then brands are really willing to realize or really have realized. So I think we’ve been kind of talking about this like redefine narrative. And I think that’s what TikTok has been doing too. And like I said, like what they’ve been able to achieve is really this shift in moving away from channels and silos and looking at more integration, more holistic planning, which creates a perfect opportunity for us to go in and say, well, great, because you know, here we are with a real like a real world version of it. Like this is truly integrated, right? This is digital IRL, This is video everywhere. This is audience extension. So it’s like you’re thinking about it. You’re trying to figure out how to do it. And here we are with a solution that has the creative chops, that allows you to create the efficiency with, you know, your influencer strategy and, you know, bringing that to scale, but also can deliver business outcomes. And like, here are all the different ways that we can show you attribution and all the other things that matter to marketers. And there’s lot more simplicity then there’s ever been before. And I think that’s what’s really interesting about the Adomni platform. I think, you know, as one of the market leaders really driving that conversation to actually simplify, like, I think that was one of the barriers for marketers for a long time is like out of home is hard to buy, excuse me, at scale and like, it’s not anymore like yesterday we played around in the Adomni product and platform.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah. DSP, DSP and DSP.
Eileen Crossin
Yes. In the DSP. Let’s edit that now.
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah. No, we did. We jumped in, we opened it up. We set up an account.
Eileen Crossin
Set up an account.
Jonathan Gudai
3 minutes later. Yeah. You’re building actual campaigns.
Eileen Crossin
1,000%. And it was video enabled and it was sound on. It was like so I could take my TikTok campaign and I could literally show it in the real world. Like, that’s that’s actually what’s happening now. So I think like that storytelling is like, so cool and I think is going to be like a real game changer.
Jonathan Gudai
Totally. Let’s finish by talking a little about creators. You know, I’ve read recently that UGC content is the fastest growing form and it’s now I think in like 20-30% of all content that gets spent pushed out is actually has an authenticity, a user generated kind of vibe to it. But for brands to identify the right creators, for them to make the right content for that to be to fit into their. How do you see that being solved for today? And then how does it also apply in our world? Where would it be just the user generated content that’s on the screens? Or do you see there being a mix of UGC plus branded content that kind of comes together?
Eileen Crossin
Yeah. I mean, I think like I’d love to see a world where creators are actually creating for the format because I think that the opportunity on a billboard is probably different than the opportunity on a mobile device. So I think that’s the if we now, next, and later it I think that’s like the aspirations for later although we can ideally find a couple of brands who would come sooner. Um, in terms of like the opportunity with creators, I think it’s so critical because what’s happening is that TikTok is training consumers to be entertained or educated by advertising. Right? So when you talk about contextual relevance, that’s just like one piece of it. That’s expected. On top of that, there needs to be some version of it that actually is like, like true content. Like, again, going back to the idea, don’t make ads make TikToks, right? So like now I think and I, I don’t I’m sure there is data on this and I don’t know what the stats would look like, but I would assume that consumers will be even more resistant to ads that feel like ads because they’re getting so used to seeing ads that are truly content. So I think it’s even more important that brands and agencies and partners like us are thoughtful about how to create them regardless of your channel.
Jonathan Gudai
Right.
Eileen Crossin
Right. So I think it’s like one size does not fit all. That’s the later. Create for TikTok in a way. Create for digital out of home in a way. But also be thoughtful about working with creators and influencers. And I think like you also asked about how easy that is. Again, I think TikTok has realized that there’s an opportunity to resource in a way that can lower the barrier to entry. And so there’s a great marketplace called TikTok Creator Marketplace, where you can actually go and you can find influencers to work with as long as they have more than, I think, 10,000 followers.
Jonathan Gudai
Mm hmm.
Eileen Crossin
So not only can you get access to, like, the biggest creators with the biggest followings, you can also look at micro-influencers who have communities that are interesting, and that’s definitely probably what you’ve been seeing about the trends in UGC, right? Where you’re starting to see more brands actually like, you know, work with hundreds of creators. Yeah, exactly. So I think the same thing applies for digital out of home. If creators can show up and out of home then you have that same opportunity is like at TikTok. It was hashtag TikTok Made me buy it. That’s like, the thing that you hear. So, like, what’s the out of home version? I’m not sure. But huge bets on shopping and commerce and thinking about how creators play a role in that.So I think that’s something to definitely keep an eye on.
Jonathan Gudai
I’m just I’m just thinking about like an example of a venue, like a shopping mall where you have vertical video kiosks, some of which have audio and it’s the holiday time or it’s not like even now before pre-holiday. But you have a buyer mindset.
Eileen Crossin
Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
And there might be a product like that is sold in a store in the mall or just they just want to drive awareness for it. And on TikTok, you might see someone, a creator, talking about it, hearing about them talk about it. But then there’s that shop now. And you could see those L.L.Bean sheets, buy those sheets and then go back to your feed or for your feed. instead of it being a shop now button on this vertical video kiosk, it’s a QR code where it’s still a shoppable TikTok fed thing, where there’s a TikTok icons, there’s a creator, there’s a call to action, and some people are going to scan it, some aren’t, but they’re gonna be exposed. And when that same video ad, which they remember seeing somewhere that shows up in there for you feed. That might be the second touch or third or fourth or fifth touch that gets them to press the button in the app and buy the product.
Eileen Crossin
Omnichannel. There you go.
Jonathan Gudai
And that’s. That’s. That’s what I see as like, yeah, huge opportunity to connect them. And I think Facebook rolled out a study and, you know, a few years back with Danone yogurt that did show that that when you actually layer on the real world influence don’t just look at it as how many scans where their purchases from that one unit look at it holistically of what did it do to our actual click throughs lower funnel. And then overall, just look at your sales when you were running the campaign and did you see lift? So I think the performance element of that is for me that we’re hoping to do where we’re not just thinking about this as more awareness just in the real world.
Eileen Crossin
Yes.
Jonathan Gudai
But we actually are trying to drive that business outcome, as you mentioned, which is ultimately, I think, what most CMOs are really asking themselves, how can I dial that up.
Eileen Crossin
100%?
Jonathan Gudai
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for coming on the podcast with me. Probably the first of many.
Eileen Crossin
First of many and my first podcast I’ve ever been on.
Jonathan Gudai
All right. Thank you for being the – the honor of being the first host for you.
Eileen Crossin
Yes, to be a guest.
Jonathan Gudai
On the other side of the table.
Eileen Crossin
Thank you.
Jonathan Gudai
And for those who actually wanted to discover another amazing podcast, Eileen and Esther have a great one called I’m Not Like You.
Eileen Crossin
Yes. Every Friday morning.
Jonathan Gudai
Every Friday morning. Super interesting variety of different topics. So it’s not just media, it’s not just TikTok. I think that it’s more just cultural relevance.
Eileen Crossin
It’s actually not media at all.
Jonathan Gudai
Zero media. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s casual. It’s interesting. It’s diverse from two very smart people. Very interesting people. So check it out. I’m Not Like You, as well.
Eileen Crossin
Thank you.
Jonathan Gudai
Welcome to the team.
Eileen Crossin
Thank you.
Jonathan Gudai
Welcome back to this side of the industry, even though you’re kind of very much still entwined with TikTok and helping bring this to bringing this product to market. It’s going to be a fun ride.
Eileen Crossin
Yes. Excited. Thank you.
Jonathan Gudai
Thank you.